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bri3d 48 minutes ago [-]
Note that this is specifically Consumer Gemini with Connected Apps; Workspace Gemini (and Workspace Intelligence, the RAG thing for enterprise/Workspace) still claims not to be subject to human review:
So basically if you use consumer Gemini and specifically authorize the GMail app, for example, then it will sometimes use the GMail tool to load your mail from GMail, and that data (like all data in consumer Gemini) might be given to the human annotation pipeline.
This whole thing seems deeply stupid to me from Google's standpoint, although they've never been good at product management - there's _way_ too much nuance to what's going on and even if they aren't technically affected, this kind of thing will almost surely make their paying enterprise customers leery.
gf74918 18 minutes ago [-]
[flagged]
EMM_386 16 minutes ago [-]
It's worse than that.
> Google Photos data is used to infer your interests, relationships to people in your photos, and where you've been, including by associating your face with corresponding location data and timestamps. This data is also used to do things for you, like look up your info or add items to your grocery list, and to improve Google services, including training generative AI.
How does that work exactly if the images aren't even real and are generated by AI? When Google siphons up these photos to help them train their AI, the AI is now going to make associations as depicted in that photograph?
That you really were with that person, in that place, in that situation, on that date? As some sort of a fact?
Can someone else create that image and just put it in their library and then have that become a fact on your behalf when picked up, analyzed and trained on?
Where does that all lead?
rustyhancock 2 hours ago [-]
Really frustrating that our privacy eroded to the point anyone would think this is reasonable.
But it does explain some conversations with Gemini when I wonder why it's talking about particular things. Like asking it about consultation processes for changes to parks only to get a response that's uncannily tuned to the email I got prompting the enquiry.
No mention of I just read your emails etc .
mistrial9 2 hours ago [-]
"search is deeply connected to AI"
in case the reply is not clear, I mean to emphasize and amplify the alarming Google behavior described above
brador 1 hours ago [-]
Everything’s a pre-structured duopoly for national security and profit moating.
There’s nowhere to go.
qeternity 48 minutes ago [-]
There are 5 major frontier labs competing in the US alone with serious capital. Perhaps only 2 of them are are truly in contention for the top spot, but it's highly competitive. Then throw in the handful of very serious sub-frontier open weights labs, who are creating huge price competition for the frontier labs, and I have no idea how you can come to this conclusion.
Cloud is no different: 3 major cloud vendors, with 1 clear leader...and now a long tail of tier 2s and neoclouds that are also investing incredible sums to compete.
Where is the pre-structured duopoly? Where is the profit moating?
hek2sch 1 hours ago [-]
Any tool having manual human reviewers or annotator like all of Gemini and notebooklm (now Gemini notebook) suffer from this. Your data has high chance being read by random people or being leaked for training because they might flag it then use it to "improve" the model.
gf74918 15 minutes ago [-]
[flagged]
asxndu 2 hours ago [-]
These things make my blood boil!
Unfortunately, the alternatives are all so bad...
nicce 1 hours ago [-]
These days it is really a breeze. Email, Drive clone and everything. Just need to invest bit a for hardware.
matchstickman23 33 minutes ago [-]
If only hardware wasn't crazy expensive :/
munk-a 2 minutes ago [-]
But it isn't - not for doing stuff like self-hosting files? It's actually incredibly cheap, most people probably have a commodity PC lying around and can shove a few cheap HDDs into it and RAID stripe it if they're ambitious... or just full mirror their files if they aren't. And if you're really scared of loss find some host provider and rent a cheapo instance somewhere geographically far from you to park a mirror of the data.
xnickb 2 hours ago [-]
Self hosting is not all that bad. If you are willing to do a bit of work you can actually get decent results at a fraction of the cost.
sdoering 59 minutes ago [-]
I am in the process of moving my stuff from Google to selfhosted alternatives. Google Photos => Immich, Google Drive => probably Next Cloud or some better alternative.
I am also looking into how to selfhost my email (and yes I know, the horror of inboxing from self hosting. But I am at the point of not only willing to give it a tr, but actively saying "fuck you" to everybody that does not receive my email, because they are on Outlook or O365 (or Google, bt inboxing into Google is easier imho).
Especially with my paid Google now daily having spam in my inbox, while valid emails are so often in spam, that I have to check spam at least once per week.
mickael-kerjean 9 minutes ago [-]
I've spent the last decade building a Dropbox alternative that works on top of any storage protocol (SFTP, S3, SMB, IFS, GIT WebDAV, local disk, and literally everything else [1]) and its on github [2]
As someone who self hosts many services, I would encourage you to switch to self hosted email last. Even though self hosting has been made much easier thanks to really incredible FOSS tools, you are going to have random learning pains, some delayed by a few months, and it would really suck to lose email for even the shortest durations. The others are easy to live without while you debug during the learning process.
Btw immich is incredible. I recommend Nextcloud AIO instead of raw Nextcloud. Absolutely great tools
qwerpy 8 minutes ago [-]
I’m looking to set up immich on my server. How do you back up your media? If you get hit by a bus how do you leave instructions and mechanisms to your family to restore the backup? My wife won’t move off of iCloud until I have a great answer for those.
chneu 40 minutes ago [-]
Don't self host email. Checkout purelymail or a similar alternative
Self hosting email is a nightmare and can bite you in the ass big time.
easytiger 2 hours ago [-]
I had a Google Meet Gemini transcription take well over 24hours once recently, rather than the usual <1hr. I could only assume manual intervention was the cause.
It might also explain why Google do not provide a page to view transcription job queues from meet. You just have to sit and wonder
bri3d 26 minutes ago [-]
There are explicit data retention contracts for Workspace (including Gemini transcription) and Google claim this data is never used for training or human review, so this is fairly baseless.
This gist is specifically about the consumer version of Gemini used in Gemini Apps. Basically if you connect your consumer Gemini (which always sends stuff to the training pipeline) to your personal Google Apps account, it gets tools that it can invoke to read your Google Apps data, which then might appear back in your consumer Gemini transcripts that are getting sent to the training pipeline.
Doing this is a stupid product move from Google (per the usual) because it confuses their enterprise customers into thinking Really Bad Stuff like this is happening.
EGreg 1 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
matt3210 1 hours ago [-]
share you system prompt and ill try your product. also, secure your system against zero day hacks
As far as securing the system -- yes there are about 25 layers of isolation and hardening to get through, to pwn the system. Even if you got through all of it, the data can just be restored on a previous system. Here are just some:
6) All network egress goes to a second Safebox, whose job it is to actually enforce policies before signing transactions / sending emails / using your credentials. So even if you totally compromised the first Safebox somehow, or even a single app on it, the policies still get enforced
7) All credentials / keys encrypted and split between Safeboxes
I could go on...
pmdr 53 minutes ago [-]
The only thing they seem to never route to humans is support.
jttnr 1 hours ago [-]
Of course they do. Now that all the freely available training material has been consumed, every website ingested, every image classified, every YouTube video watched, and even books scanned and destroyed, the insatiable hunger for more data must be fed.
opengrass 2 hours ago [-]
If you haven't figured out self hosting then you have what's coming to you.
maybewhenthesun 37 minutes ago [-]
I used to feel very 'old man yells at sky' when I told people they were being naive using Google Drive (Or any other 'cloud storage' for that matter).
I have a strong 'told you so' feeling right now.
EmX_3000 2 hours ago [-]
Is anybody surprised? Cat was let out of the bag with those mathies who chatted up AI and then AI stole their thunder.
reasonableklout 1 hours ago [-]
Yes, this is very surprising to me considering Drive and email are products that have had rock solid trust for decades, and Google is not OpenAI!
realsarm 1 hours ago [-]
"Rock Solid" Google was known to be privacy invasive. Idk how people trust Google for privacy when it comes to Ai. Look at this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40965892
ninininino 2 hours ago [-]
Guess this is another reason to migrate to local LLMs ASAP.
ipsum2 49 minutes ago [-]
This isn't a local LLM issue, Google is sending your Google Drive data to humans.
https://knowledge.workspace.google.com/admin/generative-ai/g...
So basically if you use consumer Gemini and specifically authorize the GMail app, for example, then it will sometimes use the GMail tool to load your mail from GMail, and that data (like all data in consumer Gemini) might be given to the human annotation pipeline.
This whole thing seems deeply stupid to me from Google's standpoint, although they've never been good at product management - there's _way_ too much nuance to what's going on and even if they aren't technically affected, this kind of thing will almost surely make their paying enterprise customers leery.
> Google Photos data is used to infer your interests, relationships to people in your photos, and where you've been, including by associating your face with corresponding location data and timestamps. This data is also used to do things for you, like look up your info or add items to your grocery list, and to improve Google services, including training generative AI.
How does that work exactly if the images aren't even real and are generated by AI? When Google siphons up these photos to help them train their AI, the AI is now going to make associations as depicted in that photograph?
That you really were with that person, in that place, in that situation, on that date? As some sort of a fact?
Can someone else create that image and just put it in their library and then have that become a fact on your behalf when picked up, analyzed and trained on?
Where does that all lead?
But it does explain some conversations with Gemini when I wonder why it's talking about particular things. Like asking it about consultation processes for changes to parks only to get a response that's uncannily tuned to the email I got prompting the enquiry.
No mention of I just read your emails etc .
in case the reply is not clear, I mean to emphasize and amplify the alarming Google behavior described above
There’s nowhere to go.
Cloud is no different: 3 major cloud vendors, with 1 clear leader...and now a long tail of tier 2s and neoclouds that are also investing incredible sums to compete.
Where is the pre-structured duopoly? Where is the profit moating?
Unfortunately, the alternatives are all so bad...
I am also looking into how to selfhost my email (and yes I know, the horror of inboxing from self hosting. But I am at the point of not only willing to give it a tr, but actively saying "fuck you" to everybody that does not receive my email, because they are on Outlook or O365 (or Google, bt inboxing into Google is easier imho).
Especially with my paid Google now daily having spam in my inbox, while valid emails are so often in spam, that I have to check spam at least once per week.
[1] https://www.filestash.app/docs/plugin/#storage
[2] https://github.com/mickael-kerjean/filestash
Btw immich is incredible. I recommend Nextcloud AIO instead of raw Nextcloud. Absolutely great tools
Self hosting email is a nightmare and can bite you in the ass big time.
It might also explain why Google do not provide a page to view transcription job queues from meet. You just have to sit and wonder
This gist is specifically about the consumer version of Gemini used in Gemini Apps. Basically if you connect your consumer Gemini (which always sends stuff to the training pipeline) to your personal Google Apps account, it gets tools that it can invoke to read your Google Apps data, which then might appear back in your consumer Gemini transcripts that are getting sent to the training pipeline.
Doing this is a stupid product move from Google (per the usual) because it confuses their enterprise customers into thinking Really Bad Stuff like this is happening.
You mean the default prompts we use in safebots? https://safebots.ai/safebots.html
As far as securing the system -- yes there are about 25 layers of isolation and hardening to get through, to pwn the system. Even if you got through all of it, the data can just be restored on a previous system. Here are just some:
1) Immutable startup disk, nix-based builds
2) M-of-N signatures on any supply chain updates
3) ZFS based disk encryption and sync
4) Safecloud for storage (https://safebots.github.io/Safecloud)
5) gVisor isolation for all Docker containers
6) All network egress goes to a second Safebox, whose job it is to actually enforce policies before signing transactions / sending emails / using your credentials. So even if you totally compromised the first Safebox somehow, or even a single app on it, the policies still get enforced
7) All credentials / keys encrypted and split between Safeboxes
I could go on...
I have a strong 'told you so' feeling right now.